I have to voice my extreme displeasure with the ideas I'm seeing here. What precisely is it that you guys like about Tex Murphy? I for one play them for the stories, dialogue and puzzle-solving. How do meaningless sidequests and strict money and inventory management improve Tex Murphy in any way?
Meaningful side cases like the Black Arrow Killer and uncovering Sal's unfaithfulness are great. These add depth to the game world and Tex has a clear motivation in trying to solve them. I like the idea of multiple possible puzzle solutions. This could help add variety to the game, and make each run through more unique.
I'm particularly upset with the idea of getting stuck simply because you run out of money. That is not fun. It's just infuriating. Inventory management is one of the absolute worst things about modern RPGs. It always just amounts to picking up a bunch of useless crap that you sell to make money you don't need. If Tex goes this route, this is precisely what will happen. Gamer mode should be about tougher puzzles without the benefit of hints, not screwing up to the point where you have to restart the game.
And forget realism. Games are an escape. If the Tex Murphy series were realistic, all Tex would be doing is spying on cheating spouses. I don't need or want to deal with real-life issues like managing Tex's bank account. I do enough of that in REAL-LIFE.
Meaningful side cases like the Black Arrow Killer and uncovering Sal's unfaithfulness are great. These add depth to the game world and Tex has a clear motivation in trying to solve them. I like the idea of multiple possible puzzle solutions. This could help add variety to the game, and make each run through more unique.
I'm particularly upset with the idea of getting stuck simply because you run out of money. That is not fun. It's just infuriating. Inventory management is one of the absolute worst things about modern RPGs. It always just amounts to picking up a bunch of useless crap that you sell to make money you don't need. If Tex goes this route, this is precisely what will happen. Gamer mode should be about tougher puzzles without the benefit of hints, not screwing up to the point where you have to restart the game.
And forget realism. Games are an escape. If the Tex Murphy series were realistic, all Tex would be doing is spying on cheating spouses. I don't need or want to deal with real-life issues like managing Tex's bank account. I do enough of that in REAL-LIFE.
Aaron Connors has already said this is what the game is about when he discussed the different narrative paths. He has admitted that the 14 year hiatus is going to be used and Tex will have time missing from his life, and that the game will be years after the end of Overseer.HANK wrote:Finally, "Tex was shot, kidnapped and has been missing for years. He has no idea what happened to him or where Chelsee is." For us gamers, he's been missing for years, but he could have got out of that situation the very next day, and has been with Chelsee ever since. We have to wait and see how Aaron resolves the cliffhanger and sets the new plot.
Narrative-wise, I see sidequests, the way they have been done in recent years, as a disaster.
See, Fallout 1 and 2, "back in the days", had no main plots, besides a crazy wild goose chase. In both cases, it was just an excuse to get you out there and discover the world. The entire games were made with nothing BUT sidequests, all somewhat related together by the characters that populated the wastelands. That model proved to be immensely entertaining, and truly well-written. The end results were two unforgettable games.
Fallout 3, Oblivion, L.A. Noire, and others, all had a "strong" main narrative, plagued by a multitude of sidequests. In F3 and Oblivion, the side quests were also infinitely more interesting than the actual plot, giving the player no real reason to pursue his goal. The end result was a narrative catastrophe for what was otherwise two impressive games.
In L.A. Noire, the car-calls were just ridiculous and pointless optional action scenes thrown in for good measure, cutting you off from some truly fun and will-written main plots. I like, however, how they had standalone investigations mixed with the main storyline. It was very similar to UAKM, but managed to cram a lot more story in there in very intelligent ways. Those were NOT, however, side quests.
The first Mafia is something we could also look into for narrative cues. One main story, told through a few years of standalone quests that all made perfect sense in context. I'm not saying Tex should be built that way, but the narrative path was well constructed.
I'm not a huge fan of Dragon Age and Mass Effect's model. Mainly that they give you an illusion of sandbox by being built on the same obvious frame. A bunch of quests which you do in the order of your choosing in order to assemble and prepare for the one big final quest. It was almost original the first time, but once you see the frame all the polish vanishes at once.
But really, I don't see how the boys would need to look anywhere for narrative cues. Without sounding fanboyish, I think they've cleared the way a long time ago on how to build a story, game-wise. My only absolute role-model in that area that anyone, including the guys, should look up to is and will probably always will be Deus Ex. Game story-telling at its best, with the absolute perfect way to integrate side quests.
See, Fallout 1 and 2, "back in the days", had no main plots, besides a crazy wild goose chase. In both cases, it was just an excuse to get you out there and discover the world. The entire games were made with nothing BUT sidequests, all somewhat related together by the characters that populated the wastelands. That model proved to be immensely entertaining, and truly well-written. The end results were two unforgettable games.
Fallout 3, Oblivion, L.A. Noire, and others, all had a "strong" main narrative, plagued by a multitude of sidequests. In F3 and Oblivion, the side quests were also infinitely more interesting than the actual plot, giving the player no real reason to pursue his goal. The end result was a narrative catastrophe for what was otherwise two impressive games.
In L.A. Noire, the car-calls were just ridiculous and pointless optional action scenes thrown in for good measure, cutting you off from some truly fun and will-written main plots. I like, however, how they had standalone investigations mixed with the main storyline. It was very similar to UAKM, but managed to cram a lot more story in there in very intelligent ways. Those were NOT, however, side quests.
The first Mafia is something we could also look into for narrative cues. One main story, told through a few years of standalone quests that all made perfect sense in context. I'm not saying Tex should be built that way, but the narrative path was well constructed.
I'm not a huge fan of Dragon Age and Mass Effect's model. Mainly that they give you an illusion of sandbox by being built on the same obvious frame. A bunch of quests which you do in the order of your choosing in order to assemble and prepare for the one big final quest. It was almost original the first time, but once you see the frame all the polish vanishes at once.
But really, I don't see how the boys would need to look anywhere for narrative cues. Without sounding fanboyish, I think they've cleared the way a long time ago on how to build a story, game-wise. My only absolute role-model in that area that anyone, including the guys, should look up to is and will probably always will be Deus Ex. Game story-telling at its best, with the absolute perfect way to integrate side quests.
Part-Time Nomad
On the money thing it's because I like a challenge. I even suggested there be more than 2 difficulty levels. I understand some people aren't up for a nailbiter so I'm an advocate of customization. I also like multiple pathing to an extent, but the game has to have some linearity to it. The question is how much. I'd really like to see some Fate of Atlantis A/B/C path exclusive content including multiple solutions to puzzles where some solutions give you more points and some solutions are even reserved to Tex's persona, but if more than 20% of the puzzles had multiple solutions to it, I think it would border on ridiculous.
I can agree to an extent because when playing an RPG I don't go too far down the sidequests as in most games the sidequests aren't well developed (e.g. in Final Fantasy 12 I didn't really care for the monster hunts on the Job Board since it was just a trophy thing - go to x location, kill x monster, collect x item). However if the sidequest adds more to the story or adds more character depth I enjoy them. I went the extra mile in a RPG I played recently to play the side missions because I enjoyed the other characters in the game and each mission let you learn more about or interact more with those characters. I imagine a few side cases in Tex Murphy to be much more well written and thought out in that way.
I think as mentioned there could be some smaller side cases which add something relevant to the story or let you interact more with certain characters. The UAKM example with Fran from the pizza parlour could be example. What if there was a side case that let you help out another Chandler Avenue resident that let you learn more about them.
Side cases to collect a bit of cash for stuff in the Electonics Shop, as occured in Pandora Directive, or to use at other establishments for items relevant to the story could be useful. For example if the Pet Shop is added, a couple of the mutant creatures could be useful in your inventory like the Geiger pet in UAKM was but you might need a bit of cash to get it, something Tex is usually short on.
You have a good point that too much money management might not be fun if it stopped you enjoying certain stuff. I guess like with the Electronics Shop you could just try and earn a membership card and re-use that at certain establishments like a Golf Cafe, the Flamingo etc. so that you don't have to keep sifting for pennies to revisit. And for places like Louie's there's always the neverending tab or for Slice O Heaven Tex could just use his charm (or try to with varying results) to get a free meal.
As mentioned though, they said they would like to add a Golf Cafe for Tex to hang out and play a little golf whilst he "plans his next move in the case". This wasn't a fan suggestion as far as I know but something they put in as a stretch goal themself. Chris described it as there being breaks in the case that he will spend sometime doing leisurely stuff at some points. I'm not too much into golf myself though but wouldn't mind doing other stuff on Chandler, spending some time intereacting with or helping the characters there, as said the money from those extra interactions could be then used to move the story along and pay off an informant or to pay to spend a night somewhere Tex could do a bit of investigating or if its positioned across from someplace Tex needs to spy on covertly.
Either way though I'm not sure there is the budget anyway for adding more meaningful side cases so I think the discussion is 'just for fun'. It was a suggestion that came up on the Facebook questionarre as something additional in the stretch tiers to encourage people to push up donations more for the 130% stretch. That was before the Magnificent 7 backers stepped in when Chris and Aaron (in their words) felt things were dragging or slumping. In the end due to the Magnificent 7 it wasn't necessary and when they announced the final stretch of 130% - 135% they didn't specifically mention side cases though they did mention extra funds would add more gameplay so who knows. Plus perhaps they already have some small cases relevant to the story or as extra character interaction planned.
I think as mentioned there could be some smaller side cases which add something relevant to the story or let you interact more with certain characters. The UAKM example with Fran from the pizza parlour could be example. What if there was a side case that let you help out another Chandler Avenue resident that let you learn more about them.
Side cases to collect a bit of cash for stuff in the Electonics Shop, as occured in Pandora Directive, or to use at other establishments for items relevant to the story could be useful. For example if the Pet Shop is added, a couple of the mutant creatures could be useful in your inventory like the Geiger pet in UAKM was but you might need a bit of cash to get it, something Tex is usually short on.
You have a good point that too much money management might not be fun if it stopped you enjoying certain stuff. I guess like with the Electronics Shop you could just try and earn a membership card and re-use that at certain establishments like a Golf Cafe, the Flamingo etc. so that you don't have to keep sifting for pennies to revisit. And for places like Louie's there's always the neverending tab or for Slice O Heaven Tex could just use his charm (or try to with varying results) to get a free meal.
As mentioned though, they said they would like to add a Golf Cafe for Tex to hang out and play a little golf whilst he "plans his next move in the case". This wasn't a fan suggestion as far as I know but something they put in as a stretch goal themself. Chris described it as there being breaks in the case that he will spend sometime doing leisurely stuff at some points. I'm not too much into golf myself though but wouldn't mind doing other stuff on Chandler, spending some time intereacting with or helping the characters there, as said the money from those extra interactions could be then used to move the story along and pay off an informant or to pay to spend a night somewhere Tex could do a bit of investigating or if its positioned across from someplace Tex needs to spy on covertly.
Either way though I'm not sure there is the budget anyway for adding more meaningful side cases so I think the discussion is 'just for fun'. It was a suggestion that came up on the Facebook questionarre as something additional in the stretch tiers to encourage people to push up donations more for the 130% stretch. That was before the Magnificent 7 backers stepped in when Chris and Aaron (in their words) felt things were dragging or slumping. In the end due to the Magnificent 7 it wasn't necessary and when they announced the final stretch of 130% - 135% they didn't specifically mention side cases though they did mention extra funds would add more gameplay so who knows. Plus perhaps they already have some small cases relevant to the story or as extra character interaction planned.
(Ruri_Ayanami from the old Tex Murphy ezboard).
"I don't believe in intuition, don't know why... just a feeling." - Tex Murphy
"I don't believe in intuition, don't know why... just a feeling." - Tex Murphy
I think a good way for extra interactions would be for Tex to optionally help a character out and that character makes themselves available as a multiple solution for ONE puzzle. On where Tex lives it would be cool if you found a great deal of money in the game you could have the choice to abandon Nilo and have Tex live in the Imperial, the Golden Gate Hotel, or even crash with Louie. I know a lot of sentimental people may hate me for that one, but I think it would be cool to explore where Tex sets up shop.
As long as it's relevant and meaningful, I'm all for it. I'm just worried about these ideas I keep seeing like job boards and other lazy RPG-style sidequests that will detract from the game and damage its pacing and narrative focus.
I don't see how money and inventory management can be implemented without causing frustration that will also detract from the game. Your inventory in an RPG is not critical to the gameplay the way it is in an adventure game. Not every item Tex picks up needs to have a use, but allowing users to sell critical items, or not be able to buy important things because they don't have the money will lead to frustration, and I assure you, bad word-of-mouth outside of the Tex community.
I would prefer if the money element were done away with. UAKM and Overseer worked fine without money, as has pretty much every other adventure game ever. I would prefer if Tex had to do favours or barter to get the items and information he wants rather than having to deal with the money aspect.
I don't see how money and inventory management can be implemented without causing frustration that will also detract from the game. Your inventory in an RPG is not critical to the gameplay the way it is in an adventure game. Not every item Tex picks up needs to have a use, but allowing users to sell critical items, or not be able to buy important things because they don't have the money will lead to frustration, and I assure you, bad word-of-mouth outside of the Tex community.
I would prefer if the money element were done away with. UAKM and Overseer worked fine without money, as has pretty much every other adventure game ever. I would prefer if Tex had to do favours or barter to get the items and information he wants rather than having to deal with the money aspect.
While I have every faith in Aaron's writing too, I have to admit that I'm not a big Bruce Campbell fan. I find his shtick gets old quickly. I'm sure that puts me in the minority, but I have a condo in Minority anyway so it's all goodFred Buer wrote:I have every faith in Aaron Conners' abilities as a writer to integrate a rivalry into the story for maximum awesomeness with unforeseen twists. I really think he'd make it work, and moreover, in a way none of us would have expected.
And a rivalry between Chris Jones and Bruce Campbell? How does this NOT appeal to you?
-Fred
Actually this is the clown Tim Curry played, pretty creepy yet somehow funny because Tim Curry is still using his trademark laugh and other mannerismsChandler wrote:Rocky Horror?! On Chandler Ave.?!....... that could workHANK wrote:The third, I voted to reopen the Clown shop and think it would be cool to get Tim Curry (Moneypenny from "It") to be Rusty's brother seeking vengance.
Well except when his face goes all weird with those jagged teeth and funky eyes.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuLkQMQBZA4
It would be pretty funny to see Tim Curry dressed as a clown running a reopened Rusty's with some kind of split personality between cheerful and creepy and if you ask him about certain things, such as his brother Rusty, he might get really sinister (though I mean in a more subtle way than jagged teeth and crazy eyes).
(Ruri_Ayanami from the old Tex Murphy ezboard).
"I don't believe in intuition, don't know why... just a feeling." - Tex Murphy
"I don't believe in intuition, don't know why... just a feeling." - Tex Murphy
Yeah I certainly don't see Tex getting rich either, whenever he does get a big wad of cash he has a great ability at losing it fast like accidentally tearing Fitzpatrick's cheque. I was more thinking of it in Pandora where he just got enough to get what he needed to progress, I have intentionally not replayed the games in awhile so I could forget some things but I don't remember the money aspect being too badly handled in that game. I did think the money could be used in other places on Chandler too but I agree in that he could just barter or talk his way into those. He's always welcome at Louie's for example with his neverending unpaid tab
(Ruri_Ayanami from the old Tex Murphy ezboard).
"I don't believe in intuition, don't know why... just a feeling." - Tex Murphy
"I don't believe in intuition, don't know why... just a feeling." - Tex Murphy